Color faded when exporting ProRes MOV

Please use this part to report bugs & errors, ask questions & "How to..."
Post Reply
User avatar
Micah Buzan
Posts: 16
Joined: 16 May 2016, 17:27
Contact:

Color faded when exporting ProRes MOV

Post by Micah Buzan »

Recently I've noticed the color is extra desaturated and washed out looking when exporting ProRes MOV. I don't know how much this could be on Quicktimes side, but I really hope there is a solution to this.
User avatar
slowtiger
Posts: 2889
Joined: 08 May 2008, 21:10
Location: berlin, germany
Contact:

Re: Color faded when exporting ProRes MOV

Post by slowtiger »

This should not happen at all. Can you please add info about your system? viewtopic.php?t=6167
TVP 10.0.18 and 11.0 MacPro Quadcore 3GHz 16GB OS 10.6.8 Quicktime 7.6.6
TVP 11.0 and 11.7 MacPro 12core 3GHz 32GB OS 10.11 Quicktime 10.7.3
TVP 11.7 Mac Mini M2pro 32GB OS 13.5
User avatar
Micah Buzan
Posts: 16
Joined: 16 May 2016, 17:27
Contact:

Re: Color faded when exporting ProRes MOV

Post by Micah Buzan »

iMac 27-inch, 2017. Memory 64GB.
Using TVPaint 11.5 Pro

Gamma shift is unfortunately normal when exporting to quicktime mov, but it's gotten much worse since TVPaint no longer has the option for "Million colors +" when exporting premultiply alpha. The colors are noticeably more washed out.
User avatar
D.T. Nethery
Posts: 4125
Joined: 27 Sep 2006, 19:19

Re: Color faded when exporting ProRes MOV

Post by D.T. Nethery »

Micah Buzan wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 17:47 Recently I've noticed the color is extra desaturated and washed out looking when exporting ProRes MOV. I don't know how much this could be on Quicktimes side, but I really hope there is a solution to this.

Gamma shift is unfortunately normal when exporting to quicktime mov, but it's gotten much worse since TVPaint no longer has the option for "Million colors +" when exporting premultiply alpha. The colors are noticeably more washed out.

Edited- 10/10/2022 -

I have noticed the same thing. I have wondered if it had something to do with the FFMpeg ProRes 4444 codec that TVPaint now uses instead of the Apple ProRes 4444 codec. FFMpeg ProRes is not exactly the same as Apple ProRes in Quicktime (which allowed the option of Millions of Colors+.) Although we are often told "Quicktime is dead" it seems some applications such as Adobe AfterEffects and Toonboom Harmony continue to use Apple ProRes Quicktime codecs, which seem to have more consistent results than FFMpeg ProRes in terms of color fidelity.

After Effects: Option of setting color depth to Millions of Colors+ is still available:
After Effects Export Quicktime ProRes Millions of Colors.PNG
After Effects Export Quicktime ProRes Millions of Colors.PNG (79 KiB) Viewed 2603 times
https://docs.toonboom.com/help/harmony- ... macos.html

Toonboom Harmony export options with ProRes codecs does not show the option of setting color depth to Millions of Colors+ , but it does use the original Apple ProRes codecs , not FFMpeg -
Screen Shot 2022-10-10 at 9.21.10 AM.png
Screen Shot 2022-10-10 at 10.00.42 AM.png
Screen Shot 2022-10-10 at 10.00.42 AM.png (28.56 KiB) Viewed 2595 times

--------

2nd Edit - 10/10/2022 - -

I ran a few tests just now to confirm what I'm seeing. With FFMpeg ProRes I definitely see a color shift ; the colors in the exported .MOV file are lighter, not as saturated or vibrant. I confirmed this by loading the .MOV file in Photoshop and After Effects, then using the eyedropper tool to sample various colors. The RGB values are different in the .MOV (exported with FFMpeg ProRes) than in TVPaint.
However, when I switched to using FFMpeg PNG (Lossless) codec the colors in the exported .MOV retain the same RGB values as the original colors in TVPaint, although as displayed in TVPaint my perception is that the colors in TVPaint look a bit more saturated/vibrant than in the exported .MOV file (both with FFMpeg PNG Lossless and FFMpeg ProRes, so this may be a display issue in TVPaint or it's a problem with the color space calibration of my monitor. (?) My experience with Apple ProRes 4444 is that it had better color fidelity than FFMpeg ProRes 4444 . I wish it was possible for Mac users of TVPaint to still use Apple ProRes codecs using the Apple AVFoundation framework, which is pre-installed with macOS. (or perhaps some additional tweaking could be done with FFMpeg ProRes?)

Animator, TVPaint Beta-Tester, Animation Educator and Consultant.
MacOS 12.7.1 Monterey , Mac Mini (2018) , 3.2 GHz 6-Core Intel Core i7,
16 GB RAM , TVPaint PRO 11.7.1 - 64bit , Wacom Cintiq 21UX 2nd Gen.
,Wacom Intuos Pro 5 , Wacom driver version 6.3.39-1
User avatar
Micah Buzan
Posts: 16
Joined: 16 May 2016, 17:27
Contact:

Re: Color faded when exporting ProRes MOV

Post by Micah Buzan »

Thanks for the detailed test and response D.T. Nethery!

Do you know if there's a way to get Millions Color+ back or any other work around when exporting from TVPaint?

I'm working on a client project that has specific color instructions, so this is giving me some problems.
User avatar
D.T. Nethery
Posts: 4125
Joined: 27 Sep 2006, 19:19

Re: Color faded when exporting ProRes MOV

Post by D.T. Nethery »

If I had a client specifically requesting files delivered as ProRes 4444 (with Millions of Colors+) I have an older Macbook running Mojave , which is the last MacOS that will run 32bit apps, so I have a copy of Quicktime Pro 7 and TVPaint 11.0.8 (32bits) which will export to Quicktime ProRes 4444 codec. For a period of about 3 years I was working on and off on a project where the compositor specifically wanted the files delivered in ProRes 4444 , so that's why I stayed on Mojave for so long, because I could still load up TVPaint files that I had worked on in 11.5 into the older version 11.0.8 (32bits) to export to Apple ProRes 4444.

Now, working on MacOS Monterey with TVPaint 11.7 I think the best option is FFMpeg PNG Lossless codec. I think AVI RGBA gives good results , too , but I usually use MOV instead of AVI.

Animator, TVPaint Beta-Tester, Animation Educator and Consultant.
MacOS 12.7.1 Monterey , Mac Mini (2018) , 3.2 GHz 6-Core Intel Core i7,
16 GB RAM , TVPaint PRO 11.7.1 - 64bit , Wacom Cintiq 21UX 2nd Gen.
,Wacom Intuos Pro 5 , Wacom driver version 6.3.39-1
User avatar
Micah Buzan
Posts: 16
Joined: 16 May 2016, 17:27
Contact:

Re: Color faded when exporting ProRes MOV

Post by Micah Buzan »

That's exactly what I ended up doing haha. I have a 2011 iMac with the 32 bits version of TVPaint on it. So I'm swiping files between my two computers. Kind of annoying, but at least my old iMac is getting the dust wiped off it now.
User avatar
D.T. Nethery
Posts: 4125
Joined: 27 Sep 2006, 19:19

Re: Color faded when exporting ProRes MOV

Post by D.T. Nethery »

Here is some more info (which ,frankly, puzzles me).

Export in AVI RGBA mode produces excellent color fidelity, but the file sizes are HUGE compared with FFMpeg MOV ProRes (lossy) or FFMpeg MOV PNG (lossless).
Surprisingly the file size of FFMpeg ProRes (lossy) is significantly larger (36.6 MB) than the FFMpeg PNG (lossless) file (9.7MB).
This is odd , because as I understand it , the intention of ProRes is to produce high-quality video at a lower file size to facilitate editing without getting bogged down with very
large files sizes. So I would think ProRes (lossy) files should be smaller than PNG Lossless files.
Screen Shot 2022-10-12 at 11.37.15 AM.png
Screen Shot 2022-10-12 at 11.37.15 AM.png (38.17 KiB) Viewed 2533 times
Also, it seems to make a difference depending on what video player is used to view the exported MOV file. Quicktime Player X will not open FFMpeg PNG (lossless) at all. However,when Quicktime Player X opens FFMpeg ProRes (lossy) the colors look dull and washed out. BUT ... when I open the same FFMpeg ProRes (lossy) file in DJV2 Video Player the colors look vibrant and saturated, the same as in TVPaint. In fact, using the Color Picker in DJV2 Player it shows that the RGB values of the FFMpeg ProRes MOV file match the RGB values of the color palette in the original TVPaint file. (in fact , to my eye the colors look a tad more vibrant in DJV2 PLayer than in the original TVPaint file, but the Color Picker says they are the same RGB values.

ProRes Color Values in DJV2_Player.png

Compare to how washed-out the FFMpeg ProRes file looks when opened in Quicktime Player X alongside the original TVPaint file.

Compare Quicktime Player ProRes display to TVPaint.png
(click on image to view larger)


So, the video player you use to view the exported MOV file definitely makes a difference. FFMpeg ProRes files in Quicktime Player X look dull and washed out , but the same FFMpeg ProRes files in DJV2 Player look vibrant and saturated . VLC Player also has vibrant/saturated colors when playing back FFMpeg PNG (lossless) , but VLC will not open FFMpeg ProRes (lossy) files exported from TVPaint.

Apple ProRes 4444 and Apple ProRes 422 files exported from AfterEffects and Toonboom Harmony have no problems opening in Quicktime Player X or VLC Player or DJV2 Player.


.

.

Animator, TVPaint Beta-Tester, Animation Educator and Consultant.
MacOS 12.7.1 Monterey , Mac Mini (2018) , 3.2 GHz 6-Core Intel Core i7,
16 GB RAM , TVPaint PRO 11.7.1 - 64bit , Wacom Cintiq 21UX 2nd Gen.
,Wacom Intuos Pro 5 , Wacom driver version 6.3.39-1
Post Reply