Ones at 12 fps or Two at 24 fps?

[NickA]

Hi everyone, as someone with little experience animating, I was wondering whether it is better (in terms of workflow and final output) to work one ones at 12fps or twos at 24 fps

Also is there a way to automatically change your ones into twos (ie insert an exposure in between each selected frame of animation). I didn't see anything in the manual (I've worked through it twice so far, but I may have missed something). Maybe via plugin or george script?

I've heard that its better to work at 24, so that you can draw on ones when the movement gets fast, but I'm very interested to hear everyone's opinions.

There's a similar forum topic already: http://www.tvpaint.com/forum/viewtopic. ... wos#p16544 but I think my angle is a bit different.

[Paul Fierlinger]

The answer is both. I think of all my clips as 12 fps and convert to 24 fps only those for which I will need camera moves.

Each clip ends up converted to an *.avi when it has to be inserted onto the timeline of an NLE (an editing software such as Vegas, Premier, Final Cut etc.) This is done through the Export Panel where I set the frame rate to 24 fps and TVP automatically doubles each frame and does this very fast. I use the Uncompressed (BGR24) codec.

But when I need to place a camera move within a clip I convert my clip to 24fps BEFORE I export and this is also done automatically thus:
With my 12 fps clip still open in TVP I open a new one which I set to 24fps. I open KeyFramer where I set in the Render Tab, under Source/Project my 12fps original clip with all the animation. If that clip has 100 frames I make an anim layer in the 24fps clip that has 200 frames. When I render the source layer to this layer, the KeyFramer automatically doubles each frame as it renders the camera move.

When everything I need to do in KF is done, I export it again as an avi which is this time already set to 24 fps, because the Export Panel will know that automatically.

There is much more to know about this (viz the thread you found) and you will be learning new things with every step you make for the next ten years, which is about the amount of time you need to become a top of the line animator; that is if you work at least 3 hours every single day, or 10,000 hrs all together. If you want to become top notch in 5 years you will need to work 6 hours a day, and as Jeffrey Katzenberg used to tell his animators when he worked at Disney, Come to work on Saturday and if you won't come the following day, don't come in at all anymore.

[D.T. Nethery]

I had this question come up from a student recently, re: animating at 12 fps with single frames which would then be exported to 24fps (automatically being converted to play on "twos" at 24fps).

However, here is a problem that was encountered with TVP 9 (running on Mac OS 10.5) :

There is no option in the Start Up Panel to start a project at 12fps. The options are 10fps, 12.5 fps, 15fps, 24fps, 25fps, 29.97fps, 30fps, 50fps, 60fps.

It is the same in the Export Footage To ... The option of 12.5 fps is available, but not 12fps .

Picture 2.png (39.86 KiB) Viewed 26779 times

However, the project window does give the option of playing the scene at 12 fps.

Picture 3.png (13.39 KiB) Viewed 26778 times

Is this just a Mac thing ? In the Windows version of TVP 9 is it possible to start a new project at 12 fps in the Start Up Panel ?

The only way I can see to animate at 12fps is to set the frame rate to 24fps in the Start Up Panel, then animate on singles with the Project window frame rate set to 12 fps for playback ,
then double all the frames with the Instance Panel before exporting to Quicktime .mov at 24fps.

[Peter Wassink]

you can always modify your project to any custom framerate including 12.

but i agree, 12 fr should be in that list of defaults.
these are probably the most often used values (in Europe anyway):
-25
-24
-12,5
-12

[Paul Fierlinger]

This strangeness or quirk of TVP has existed from its beginning and I know the developers are perfectly aware of it since threads like this one pop up all the time. I think they must be saving the fix of this for the very last one, when the software will be so perfected that only this fix will be left as the last symbolic button to close TVP and start something new because there will be nothing left to do on TVP.

But D.T's system of using 12 fps within a 24fps project maybe isn't the worst of ideas in light of the upcoming Project/Storyboard Tab mode. Apparently it is a real big deal to program a time line to correctly play back clips of variable speeds. Only the most advanced NLEs figured that one out not so long ago. I just might try changing my current multi-clip project to 24fps and do what Nethery's students do to see if there might be an advantage to this work flow-- something tells me there just might be...

[malcooning]

There is no option in the Start Up Panel to start a project at 12fps.

It's true that 12fps should be certainly appear in the list. But it's very easy to overcome this by manually entering 12 in that value box.
If after entering 12fps in the box you still don't get 12fps as the project frame rate (as it is likely so for buggy reasons), simply modify your project to 12fps, and save this as a template.
after doing this you can select that template from the startup panel, and you'll get 12fps in your project.

[D.T. Nethery]

There is no option in the Start Up Panel to start a project at 12fps.

It's true that 12fps should be certainly appear in the list. But it's very easy to overcome this by manually entering 12 in that value box.
If after entering 12fps in the box you still don't get 12fps as the project frame rate (as it is likely so for buggy reasons), simply modify your project to 12fps, and save this as a template.
after doing this you can select that template from the startup panel, and you'll get 12fps in your project.

Good idea. I had not thought to suggest saving a modified project at 12fps as a template to open in the start up panel.

I will pass that idea along.

(BUT 12fps ought to be standard in the Start Up Panel !)

[Fabrice]

This strangeness or quirk of TVP has existed from its beginning and I know the developers are perfectly aware of it since threads like this one pop up all the time.

Paul, be sure I never noticed it ...
Should be fixed soon.

[Paul Fierlinger]

What joy! And it'll be like an egg hunt; just minutes ago I was using Modify Project where "12" is missing, a unique twist. Happy hunting!

[NickA]

Thanks for the Tips, espscially Paul. That's a good idea, (doing it all on 12 exept when needed and using a NLE).

I think your right Paul about the 10,000 hours needed to be top tier. Have you ever read Malcom Gladwell's Outliers? He talks a ton about that 10 year/10,000 hour rule and gives examples for all sorts of fields. Unfortunately, I think I need 9,700 hours more just for my drawing abilities :p. I think talent (as opposed to hard work) is still heavily overrated.

I forgot to check the box to recieve emails about this thread, so I thought noone had replied to just now.

[Paul Fierlinger]

Nick, I am glad you read Outliers, one of my recent favorite books, although I've been listening to old animators for decades telling the younger ones that they will need ten years to "get it". Malcom Gladwell just explains why this is so and how it applies to all of human activities -- it's a gem of a little book. I wholeheartedly agree with what you say about talent; overrated but not nonsensical. Talent nurtures one's desire to succeed in certain directions and leave other disciplines behind. I always had the passion and hunger to draw but recognized early on that I can't play music with the same passion and dropped the lessons to concentrate only on drawing.

[hisko]

I'm just finishing reading Outliners coincidently (I'm simultaneously reading 4 books, sort of zapping inbetween them), and I like Outliners a lot. But I think the 10.000 hours only make sense when people are willing to learn new stuff all the time. Just working like a donkey for 10.000 hours won't get you anywhere.
Greatest examples are the artacademies I know, where one can fiddle around for 5 years and learn almost nothing.

[Paul Fierlinger]

Greatest examples are the artacademies I know, where one can fiddle around for 5 years and learn almost nothing.

Or study Russian for thirteen years in school, in a country controlled by the Iron Heel of the evil Soviet Empire, and learn only to hate just the sound of the language.
BTW, it's Outliers -- people who live mentally in the outlaying regions of common activities.

[hisko]

Greatest examples are the artacademies I know, where one can fiddle around for 5 years and learn almost nothing.

Or study Russian for thirteen years in school, in a country controlled by the Iron Heel of the evil Soviet Empire, and learn only to hate just the sound of the language.
BTW, it's Outliers -- people who live mentally in the outlaying regions of common activities.

Yes, I'm reading it in Dutch, "Uitblinkers", I didn't know that word in English.
I know how my Czech friends used to hate Russian so much.

I think Gladwell is very focused on succes in terms of career, and he is right in that way.
But if 10.000 hours of work would make you a good artist, the world wouldn't be filled with shit (I'm talking about 99% of artistic and entertainment-products that are being made).
Of course Gladwell adds the gigantic influence of environment and chance (and genes of course, although he hardly talks about that), so in the end he is right in any way.

[Paul Fierlinger]

I think Gladwell is very focused on succes in terms of career, and he is right in that way.

Career or perhaps craftsmanship. I think he talks about becoming good at doing what you do and takes care to separate becoming successful from attaining complete mastery. The way this would apply to art, I would think that it would be like sticking oneself into a single style of drawing and becoming very, very good at it. But to become a master, one needs to achieve more than just becoming very good at drawing in a single style.